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Post by Wildcat445 Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:13 pm

.....that you guys are interested in hearing about my latest find, are you? Another recording by a long-dead artist. This IS the "Record and Phongraph" board, you know. I am between projects and this is all I have to share. Rolling Eyes

WC

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Post by mafiamen2 Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:19 pm

We'll if your sharing at least give us a clue to who it is Wink
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Post by Bill Cahill Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:50 am

Grouch.

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Post by 75X11 Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:35 am

Go ahead and put it up. If folks don't respond to this one, try another. They might respond, so try another. It is what all of the recording artists did, too.
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Post by Wildcat445 Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:27 am

Thanks, Bill.  You may be right.    Rolling Eyes

Okay, here's the clue.  Bubbles.

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Post by Wildcat445 Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:38 pm

"Waltz Time" by Lawrence Welk from 1958.  This album was one of the first that LW recorded in stereo.  Also one of his most popular albums.  It was re-issued on Ranwood records, R-8025, in 1974, again in 1978 and later on CD in 2004.  I have the Ranwood re-issue from 1974.  I can't imagine this album being rare, since it was so popular.  I can't imagine it being played daily, either.  Anyone, except me, who is into LW and his music is either dead or their phonograph is.  Nobody else cares.  It sure has been hard to find.

Recorded in "hyper-stereo", typical of early stereo recordings, this effort is typical LW.   Violins start in one channel and move over to the other.  Male vocals on one channel, female on the other.  Brass on one channel, woodwinds on the other.  Bass appears on both channels.  Later stereo recordings were more "balanced."  I like the early "hyper-stereo" recordings, especially in country and big band music.

I started collecting Lawrence Welk material and memorabilia in 1959.

WC

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Post by Bill Cahill Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:49 pm

Personally, I like the separation on early stereo. You hear more instruments that way.. He's not by big fav., but, I like records you would hate. I just picked up some fifties six inch Golden children's 78's, and, my favorite in that bunch is "Smokey the Bear".

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Post by willy3486 Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:29 pm

Vonderful,vonderful find!

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Post by Wildcat445 Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:59 pm

Since you collect Little Golden records, I am looking for a copy of "The Teddy Bear Polka" sung by Melody Jack aka Frank Sinatra. I wore mine completely out. The 1949 version, not the 1953. I want the one with Vicky Kasen orchestra, not Mitch Miller. I have a Golden Record LP made sometime in the 1970's. It is mono with much the same music as on the little 78's but for some reason it is not the same. I'm glad to hear of another fan of early stereo. Many audiophiles criticize that era for "hyper-stereo."

Rosie Clooney, Eddie Fisher,Patti Page, and Gene Autry also made kiddie records.

WC

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Post by 75X11 Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:20 pm

I looked up Golden Records on Wikipedia. I wouldn't have guessed it was a proper label, nor related to the little golden books I read as a young child not having a little golden record player (not enough gold around the house for that). Wasn't there also a Peter pan and Cricket label also?
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Post by Bill Cahill Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:57 pm

Yes, but, they weren't called little golden records. They were called Golden records. All three companies were centrally owned by Golden, which eventually became Rocking horse records. They did make a couple of cheap model Golden record players, and, they were also sold under names such as Lionel, but, made by a central company.
Disney also sold record records called Disney Golden Records...
The early ones were yellow. The later ones Orange, then, were just called Disney.
I have a 70's Rocking Horse LP   that both the jacket, and, all the recordings are an exact re copy of a Peter Pan LP I had when young.
Perhaps Peter Pan was the supplier of the records for all these companies since I have a number of 40's ten inch seventy eights. I also have a rare Ten inch yellow Golden seventy eight.
I try to get the original jackets wherever possible. And, condition is important to me....
I'mstill looking for "I am a fine musician sung by men, and, women with orchestra now known to have been recorded on RCA Victor school records. Not sold to the public. Don't get this mixed up with a similar earlier record called The Musicians with same music, but, played on a guitar, and, words are much different. I have that record.
I'm also looking for a good 6" Yellow copy on Golden Records called "Surrey with the fringe on the top". Sung on one side, instruments  only on other.

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Post by 75X11 Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:03 pm

"Little" was the term used by Wikipedia, that was the reason I used it. I hadn't given much thought to children's records nor the spatial separation of early stereo recording. I learn something new every day.
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Post by Bill Cahill Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:07 pm

Wikpedia makes a lot of mistakes.

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Post by 75X11 Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:04 pm

It's pot luck. :-)
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Post by Wildcat445 Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:05 am

Bill, I could almost swear that I have, or have seen, "Little" Golden Records.  The word "little" was in cursive, the word "Golden" was in bold print, and "Records" was again in cursive.  Was not Golden records and its affiliates, Peter Pan and Disney records, by virtue of Mitch Miller's participation, wholly or partly owned by Columbia Records?  The kiddie record I have by Rosie Clooney "Little Red Monkey" is on a 10" 78rpm record, on the Columbia label.  And it is yellow with an orange label.  I have a Little Lulu record on Golden, but it is black with a red and white label.  There is no "little" in the name, just Golden.  Kiddie records back then were quite well done, with full orchestration and sung by famous artists, sometimes even under their own names. Perry Como did kiddie records early in his career, in the early 1950's, under contract to RCA.  Perhaps this is the RCA connection to kiddie records.  Interesting stuff.  Thanks for sharing.

75, my fascination with, and my appreciation of the "Nashville Sound" period, starting in approximately 1959 got me into the "hyper-stereo" recording techniques.  There was a thread on ARF a number of years ago about the Nashville sound and Dynagroove by RCA.  Dynagroove was a recording technique, the way I understand it, that introduced a certain distortion to the music, only to be demodulated by the cartridge and electronics of the new RCA New Vista instruments in an effort to cancel and eliminate certain inter-groove distortion then common in stereo disc recordings.  The comment was made, from an audiophile standpoint, how noisy those old RCA Dynagroove recordings were played on more modern, sensitive equipment with magnetic cartridges.  There was also a discussion on "hyper-stereo", again from an audiophile standpoint, stating how "fake and artificial" hyper stereo was from a purely technical standpoint.  In early days, the band was basically divided in half with the singer standing in the middle.  Each half was mic'd, then the singer and the bass in the middle was mic'd.  This created the "hyper-stereo" effect that they were criticizing on ARF.  Early stereo country music, heavy with steel guitar and fiddle, in my estimation, sounded especially good in this format.  Big band music, ala Lawrence Welk, lent itself well to this early stereo recording technique as well.  Billy Vaughn's four or five part saxaphones sounded REALLY good in hyper-stereo.  These recordings, played on early stereo equipment, like my Magnavox stereos, are simply breathtaking on certain recordings.  Ironically, the label that did "hyper-stereo" the absolute best and was criticized most during that read was Somerset.  This is a "B" label by Synthetic Plastics Corp, that owned several cheap labels.  The kind you would buy at the checkout stand of the grocery or drug store back in the day.  I actually seek out this label with its no-name artistry.  It is normally quite good, and the "hyper-stereo" is awesome.  Two of the more outstanding, "hyper-stereo" Somerset recording artists I have are Slim "88" Wilson, a three-finger piano player of considerable talent, and Homer and the Barnstormers, a blue grass band, also of considerable talent. Both household names, yes?

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Post by 75X11 Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:08 am

This piece might be of interest to you. It was originally released in mono by Columbia. It was found out later after the performance that another recording was made simultaneously from another location on the stage and was mixed with the original to make a stereo recording. It is Duke Ellington and his Orchestra playing Diminuendo And Crescendo In Blue. It is pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgow060zOg
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Post by Wildcat445 Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:18 am

That is interesting. I had not considered that as a possibility. I wonder if it was done more than one realizes. Electronic re-processing for stereo was not the same as hyper stereo. Electronic reprocessing was remixing a mono recording to "sound" stereo. It is normally horrible. Hyper stereo is truly like two different bands playing at the same time. Thanks for the link. I don't know how you find this stuff. You are a better searcher than I am.

WC

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Post by willy3486 Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:46 am

Google is your friend

little golden records.

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Post by 75X11 Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:21 am

Wildcat445 wrote:That is interesting.  I had not considered that as a possibility.  I wonder if it was done more than one realizes.  Electronic re-processing for stereo was not the same as hyper stereo.  Electronic reprocessing was remixing a mono recording to "sound" stereo.  It is normally horrible.  Hyper stereo is truly like two different bands playing at the same time.  Thanks for the link.  I don't know how you find this stuff.  You are a better searcher than I am.

WC

Actually it didn't take much searching. It is a cut from one of my favorite CD's that I've had for 10-12 years. The 2 cd set had a booklet that tells, among other things, how it was produced.
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Post by Wildcat445 Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:53 am

You are still a better searcher than I am, regardless of whether it is superior talent on your part, (likely) or laziness on my part (more likely).

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Post by Bill Cahill Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:55 am

I don't know, but, though Mitch Miller and, his orchestra are seen on a lot of Golden records, I have some with other orchestras as well.
I also have three Golden records with recordings by Will Rogers, and, Dale Evans. My Brother used to have a 45 rpm green Peter Pan with Perry Como singing Joy to the World, and, God rest ye merry gentlemen on one side, and, someone else singing Frosty the snowman on the other side. I'd like to find a copy of that record for myself... I'll look at my earlier Golden records, and, see if they have the word little in them, but, I know on others they only say Golden Records. Disney Golden records Say Disney at the top, with a picture of Mickey Mouse. I also have a couple of well done Rocking Horse 45's that have the rock n roll version of The Hoeky Pokey. A lot of those children's records were well done, and, most also have excellent fidelity. Far better than most child's record players had...

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Post by 75X11 Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:55 am

Try this, it is from another CD I have of the stereo soundtrack lifts from Glenn Millers' two movies...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxML_k0_NaA
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Post by Wildcat445 Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:53 pm

My grandparents had an RCA tv combo and got all annoyed when I tried to play my kiddie records on it.  They claimed my cheap records would wreck the needle.  Now I know that situation may have been reversed.  Their RCA needle was apt to wreck my kiddie records.  I played them on an old Montgomery Wards "Gilt Edge" one tube wonder with a"40 pound" tone arm, and they are pretty much worn out for the most part.  Some of my Disney records have the "Magic Castle" on them, some have Mickey Mouse.  My kiddie records either have Mitchell Miller, Vicky Kasen or a country band on them.  The country band is not identified, but I strongly suspect Gene Autry has a part to play.  I have always suspected that Vicky Kasen was actually a male, but have not confirmed that.  I do not have any Rocking Horse records.  I suspect that several famous bands/orchestras and singers worked on kiddie records, some under different names, some under their real names.  I wish I had taken better care of my kiddie records, but who knew?  I still have that old Gilt Edge record player, but the Astatic crystal cartridge is bad, like they all are.

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Post by Wildcat445 Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:04 pm

75, that video you linked is typical of why there is criticism of "electronically reprocessed" stereo. That is generally a mess. Mono sounded actually better. That would have been a tremendous song for "hyper-stereo". You could have had the "tweedly tweedly" of the clarinets on one channel, the piano on the other. The trumpets on one channel, the muted trombones on the other. Who played Glenn Miller in that movie? I have it on the tip of my tongue, but can's say it. Milton Berle played Miller's sidekick. Great stuff, and not possible anymore. All that talent is long gone.

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Post by Wildcat445 Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:31 pm

Another record from the same stack as my latest LW record is a Johnny Tillotson record "Talk Back Trembling Lips" on MGM, E-4188, mono, circa 1963. Tillotson was one of the mid-1960 "tenors", men with higher-pitched voices who survived Nashville Sound with their high-pitched voices intact. Wayne Newton, Bobby Vinton, Ernie Ashworth, and probably Webb Pierce and Hank Locklin could be included here. "Talk Back Trembling Lips" was an Ernie Ashworth hit, reprised here by Johnny Tillotson. The liner notes credit this album as Johnny Tillotson's first effort after "It Keeps Right On A-Hurtin'" which was the song that put him on the charts, in 1962.

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