Grounding

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Grounding

Post by terrydec on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:48 pm

This is, without a doubt, the most contentious subject I've ever encountered.  I have argued with a lot of people about it, but I couldn't believe this...

I had an ungrounded outlet and failed an inspection because of it.  My landlord sent an electrician.  Of course not a licensed one.  He told me he 'fixed' it by installing a jumper between the ground and return.  What's wrong with this picture?
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Re: Grounding

Post by Chas on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:57 pm

The outlet is still un-grounded.

I would drop a dime with the local electrical inspector. Lets assume a permit was pulled for the outlet. Oh, you called because you wanted to know who the electrician was, you have a job at a friends home. (not)...

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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:27 pm

His rationalization was that the return and ground wind up at the same bus at the panel. Hmmm. BTW- No, he isn't an electrician. He works for my landlord and is a general maintenance man. And no, I can't bug my landlord. He won't care, and I'll just look like a problem tenant. This is just a comment on inadequacy.
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:29 pm

Oh yeah, it passed the inspection because their plug in tester showed a correct ground.
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Re: Grounding

Post by Chas on Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:23 pm

their plug in tester , modified to show O.K?

Do not contact the landlord. Call the city (town) electrical inspector, if no joy, the state licensing board, fingering all. If the inspector comes out, have him pull the plate and the outlet.

Its your safety, give up too soon, it's your life...

Don't moan, make them groan!

Go further contact one of those TV "Call for Action" folks. They will expose the shame of these unlicensed caretakers.

In this state building caretakers must be a licensed master electrician and they still can't touch potable water or make any other alterations to refrigeration like top off charge.

You will have to take care of your personal safety, I can't not from a post on this board.

You did't provide your location in your profile, if you did I would Google your state and point to the licensing board and contacts for their office, sorry...

Oh, there are also rules and regulations for landlords their too.

YMMV

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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:14 pm

It is very complicated. I owe the landlord a lot of money, since he helped me buy my truck and owns it for insurance purposes. If I do as you suggest, obviously the right thing, it will all blow up in my face. Instead I removed the jumper.
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Re: Grounding

Post by Clinton_2 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:38 am

Increase your insurance and make sure your smoke detectors are working.  I'd look for another place to live too if that's possible. It should be a GFCI.

Your electrical code might be different, but BC Electrical code, rule 26-700 ( 8 ) says:
Notwithstanding Subrule (7), at existing outlets where a grounding means does not exist in the receptacle
enclosure, grounding-type receptacles without a bonding conductor shall be permitted to be installed,
provided that each receptacle is
(a) protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type that is an integral part of this
receptacle;
(b) supplied from a receptacle containing a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type; or
(c) supplied from a circuit protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type.

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Re: Grounding

Post by Chas on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:38 am

terrydec wrote:It is very complicated.  I owe the landlord a lot of money, since he helped me buy my truck and owns it for insurance purposes.  If I do as you suggest, obviously the right thing, it will all blow up in my face.  Instead I removed the jumper.
Terry, I now understand. Sorry about the aggressive answers.

I would take the advice given above to use a GFI that can function with just the live and neutral wire. I can't understand how?

My alternative is replace the "U" ground outlet with a vintage two wire outlet. It will be clear that it is not grounded. By virtue an extra adapter would be needed to use it...

Be Safe!

Chas
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Re: Grounding

Post by Clinton_2 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:46 am

[quote="Chas"]
terrydec wrote:
I would take the advice given above to use a GFI that can function with just the live and neutral wire. I can't understand how?

My alternative is replace the "U" ground outlet with a vintage two wire outlet. It will be clear that it is not grounded. By virtue an extra adapter would be needed to use it...

Be Safe!

Chas

The GFI has a CT on the hot lead and the neutral lead. If they don't balance, it trips.

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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:51 am

Right on the GFI.  I watched a YouTube video about this.  I always thought that a Ground Fault Interrupter needed a ground.  Thus the designation "Ground Fault."  I was wrong and I am never wrong.  Okay, there was that one time.  It was on a Thursday, in the afternoon. Smile
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:57 pm

The saga continues.  This just a vent because there is nothing I can do about the situation.  The landlord believes the sun rises and sets on this guy, and if I make a suggestion, I'm the one who is wrong.

I decided to see how he handled a situation that I told the landlord couldn't be done, so I volunteered to be his helper today.  The object was to install a GFI in a switch box.  

First of all, this guy believes that 480 VAC comes into the panel, and that the ground wire carries current.  He also believed that he could get a hot and return across the switch wires.  I patiently drew him a diagram, showing the fact that the switch was in series with the source and load.  He didn't get it.  He was convinced that the only reason it didn't work was because there wasn't a ground wire to carry the return current.  That's when I shut up and started biting my tongue.  By the end of the day I had almost bit it off.

I tried to explain Tube and Knob wiring, he didn't remotely get it.  He kept saying that there had to be a ground wire somewhere.

This guy scares the hell out of me.  He started in on ion displacement and the fact that AC current went straight, like DC.  I kept biting my tongue and saying things like, "Gee, I sure never saw it that way,"  or "Really?  I never thought about that."  By now my tongue was starting to hurt really badly.
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:18 pm

This person is now downstairs trying to repair a ceiling fan.  He believes that it is a capacitor, so he has been replacing it with others, convinced that they are all bad.  I showed him how to test them with a meter, in other words, that on the resistance setting on an analogue meter a good cap will rise and then go down.  He didn't beleive it because he couldn't duplicate it on his digital meter. He has been working on this fan for three days.  I offered him my 'widow maker' to test the motor.  He doesn't believe that you can put voltage directly to the motor.  I actually did this on another fan in front of my landlord so that he could see the result.  It is really frustrating to watch this guy work.
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Re: Grounding

Post by Clinton_2 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:52 pm

Pfft.  Everyone knows you need a Rockwell Retro Encabulator for a fan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w

Seriously, this guy sounds dangerous.

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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:56 pm

Very Happy
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:59 pm

I would show him this, except that he would believe it.
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Re: Grounding

Post by Clinton_2 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:06 pm

It'll give him something to think about lol

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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:48 pm

I believe that thinking is beyond this guy's pay grade.
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:16 pm

And the beat goes on--

I just spent an hour on the phone with this guy.  He's obviously been drinking and he went rambling on and on, trying to pick my brain.  He told the landlord that he wants me to be his helper.  Arrgghh!! The landlord originally asked me to do the job we went on today.  I told him it couldn't be done.  So, he hired this guy.  I guess the fact that it really couldn't be done, and I knew that, made an impression on him.

BTW- The landlord is one of these, "Do it cheap, even if it's not right, as long as it works," people.  He'll wind up spending five dollars in the long run, to save a nickel today.  He doesn't realize that he is spending more money to keep patching the system.  I try to just keep quiet.  Today I saw a piece of romax, indoor wiring, running straight from the outside breaker panel to an outdoor light sensor, the wires were connected with bare wirenuts, without even tape around them, and they came straight out of a hole punched in the side of the panel.   Scary.

Oh right, one thing I might not have mentioned...these are all old one family houses, built in the 1800s, and converted into apartments.  All of the old wiring is tube and knob. The problem is that most of his tenants are on section 8 and the inspectors have started being a lot more diligent in checking for code. That's why all the jury-rigging is going on.
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Re: Grounding

Post by Chas on Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Clinton_2 wrote:
Chas wrote:
The GFI has a CT on the hot lead and the neutral lead. If they don't balance, it trips.
I was unaware that it is differential current detection  across L1/L2 is the principle of operation of these "later" design devices. Seems like a proper solution to Terry's situation.

I found: https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfcis-2-wire-circuits-38554/

Unfortunately the installer was using an older device perhaps that required ground and thought that connecting a wire from Neutral to the ground wire in the device satisfied correct operation

Seems some Muni's require such a two wire to three wire outlet to be labeled as not for safety...

I have installed GFCI recently, the last GFCI  outlet went into my bath as a service outlet. In event razors or a tub circulator are used.

That said this "new" GFCI would work for Terry...

But so would a GFCI circuit breaker in Terry's "switch box" advantage a whole branch of outlets covered. Disadvantage, if a large number of devices have small "bypass" current, that is cumulative, the next device will cause a nuisance trip at the panel.

Since my licenses have expired some years ago certainly power wiring has changed with the advent of modern electronics.

Terry,

At this point I see the opportunity to use this guys expertise as the topic for a modern novel. "The Caretakers Revenge"

A murder twist with each scenario causing what appears to be an accidental death, but the killer with his/her erroneous knowledge sets up these booby traps and dispatches each tenant that repeatably annoys him/her. Doing so to keep his "well" paid job. Greed the motive... After three deaths, experts are called in and the minute details of each find a pattern. Similar death with a previous employer also considered accidental, especially when the discovery of the killers child hood hobby of electrocuting birds...

I have watched way too many "Midsommer Murders"  Rolling Eyes

Glad I posted, learned a bit about modern devices...

Thanks Clinton_2

Be Safe!

Chas
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:32 pm

Chas wrote:At this point I see the opportunity to use this guys expertise as the topic for a modern novel. "The Caretakers Revenge"

A murder twist with each scenario causing what appears to be an accidental death, but the killer with his/her erroneous knowledge sets up these booby traps and dispatches each tenant that repeatably annoys him/her. Doing so to keep his "well" paid job. Greed the motive... After three deaths, experts are called in and the minute details of each find a pattern. Similar death with a previous employer also considered accidental, especially when the discovery of the killers child hood hobby of electrocuting birds...

I have watched way too many "Midsommer Murders"  Rolling Eyes

Glad I posted, learned a bit about modern devices...

Thanks Clinton_2

Be Safe!

Chas
[/quote]
[/quote]

I love it.  It reminds me of an old CSI program.  This guy keeps killing people accidentally.  As the bodies pile up it just gets funnier.
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:50 pm

I'm running into a mindset that is anathema to me.  When I'm working with his other laborers they all say the same thing, "Slow down, you're on the clock."  These people take half hour breaks, stop working to have long conversations, run around, go to lunch and take long smoke breaks, all on the clock.

I arrive at the job, work at a steady pace, don't take breaks, and I work and talk at the same time.  I had one guy actually try to pull me away from what I was doing to talk to him. Of course they try to make me work at their pace because I make them look bad.  To me this reflects a defect in their entire lifestyle.  They are lazy, have messy living conditions, and can't hold a conversation on anything but the latest football or basketball game.  I have nothing against sports, but I also have other interests.
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Re: Grounding

Post by terrydec on Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:19 pm

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2474570/computer-hardware/computer-hardware-the-long-and-glorious-history-of-the-turbo-encabulator.html
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