Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

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Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:44 pm

I threatened to share this project with you guys. I will still be willing to do that if you have any interest. I would like this to be a component by component restoration, with as many good pictures as I can take and you would like to see. All five (six) chassis, all 42 (44) tubes and maybe even add a MPX adapter, not generally available when this instrument was built in 1959. We will go thru the Phantom Control remote control and the whole shot. I am sure I will make mistakes, but we will share the experience should you be interested in following along.

There is a common complaint about weak bass response in Magnavox dual frequency (compound, bi-amps) that I have had the opportunity to investigate. Apparently, this is a legitimate complaint, since I have uncovered conclusive evidence that it exists. I received the help of a former engineer who figured out that I was not dreaming the defect. The vaunted Concert Grand and Imperial models were actually manufactured with a now known defect. We can probably blame the bean counters for this defect, but it is there none the less, and I am going to attempt to first cure the condition in the Concert Grand, and if successful, to an Imperial. My restored Imperial exhibits this tendency, so I can attest to the merit of my investigation. It appears that Magnavox collectors do not want to acknowledge this condition, but some attach graphic equalizers and other gizmos to enhance the bass response. I have made several people mad at me for even suggesting the word "defect", so let's use the word " condition." If my investigation proves accurate, the mere changing a couple component values and adding two more may cure the condition. Less than $5 total cost in a Concert Grand. I can easily return the circuit to its original configuration should this "fix" not prove successful.

The two amplifiers used in the Concert Grand were used individually in the mono instruments. Magnavox used mono amplifiers and modified them for stereo. The mono instruments used two 15" speakers and a horn. The stereo models omitted one 15" speaker and the ability to reproduce mid-range frequencies. This was the basis for my investigation.

It is also my considered opinion that the introduction of the Concert Grand spelled the beginning of the end for Magnavox. Certainly for its superiority in the audio field. I personally feel that the Concert Grand could have been truly "grand" had the bean counters not reigned supreme. Why did Maganvox not use its 6L6 chassis? Why did they omit the second 15" speaker per channel? Why did they not compenstate for this missing speaker? Perhaps their charging the price of a Chevrolet for an instrument not performing as well as a smaller Magnavox instrument that cost half what a CG did accounted for the poor sales of the best Magnavox had to offer. Build quality was outstanding on the Concert Grand. Again in my opinion, better performing instruments were built in its day. Claims of "thunderous bass" fall on deaf ears as far as I am concerned. I guess it depends on what you compare it to. A cell phone with ear buds, perhaps. A good component system built in the 1970's, no way. My quest in the restoration of my instrument is to separate the buckwheat from the BS as far as bass response is concerned. I like my instrument and just want it to perform the best it can and last another 50 years.

I will start this project sometime next month. I am game for comments in the interim. Please feel free to participate in my poll.

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Bill Cahill on Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:20 pm

I'm interested................

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:25 pm

I will be watching WC.
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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Motorola man on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:27 pm

Same here!
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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:40 pm

Thanks, guys.  I appreciate your support.  I hope my negotiating the various challenges of this project will justify your confidence.

I should clarify a couple of concerns right from jump street.  First, it is not my intention to make disparaging remarks about the Magnavox Concert Grand stereo in any way.  I looked long and hard for mine, found the best one I could and am thrilled to add it to my growing Magnavox collection.  I will admit that part of my fascination with this model was all the hype I had read about how "magnificent" it was.  How well it performed.  How it is the Holy Grail of Magnavox and how anyone who owns one deserves to sit at the right hand of God.  Admittedly mine is unrestored at this point, but, as I suspected, the actual performance of the instrument in NO WAY lives up to the hype.  

Secondly, the results of my investigation concerning bass response of Magnavox dual-frequency amplifiers is not of my own doing.  I sought the aid of a person who was not necessarily a Magnavox fan, and would evaluate the various circuits of interest to me, without injecting personal feelings into the equation.  I found such a person, not necessarily thrilled about the project, but who did a simulation on the amplifier circuits and was good enough to make a recommendation about a remedy.  The only credit I will accept for this is that I suspected a problem existed, and took the initiative to seek a remedy.  I will apply the suggestions offered to my instrument, and will evaluate the results to my own satisfaction.

In fairness, comparing the performance of my 1959 Concert Grand to more modern equipment is about like comparing my 1963 Buick to a new Buick.  The Concert Grand is housed in a solid wood cabinet, finished on the inside as well.  It has remote control, a new thing in 1959.  State of the art.  The best.  Compared to a component system of just 15 years newer, like my Pioneer SX-1050, this state-of-the-art 1959 instrument performs like a clock radio.  My beloved old Buick is the best they built when it was new.  Its brakes were put on every hot rod built back in the day.  Now it is a gas-guzzling, wallowing pig whose brakes make you wonder if you are gonna kill a little Honda before I get the thing halted.  It takes up two parking spaces.  A 2015 Buick does everything better than my old '63.  Except how it looks, how it feels, what it means to me.  I need to extend this same courtesy to my old Concert Grand.  I should not expect it to be more than it is.  I think it can be better.  That is my goal.  To make it the best it can be without changing its personality.

I promise that during this project you will NEVER hear me use the terms "Maggie" or "bi-amps."  This bastardization of correct terminology disgusts me.  Maggie was the land mare in my grandpa's team of Percheron mares and "bi-amps" is a term dreamed up by whomever for whatever reason, but I suspect mostly because they did not know the correct terminology for "Magnavox" and "dual-frequency" amplifiers.  I believe the correct terminology sounds rather exotic, so that is what I will use for this discussion.  

The only other application of compound or dual-frequency amplifiers of which I am aware is in church organs.  With my distaste for church organs, I approached this project with a chip on my shoulder.  I still do not see the advantage of dual frequency amps over the more traditional type.  I will add in fairness that the performance of the dual frequency amplifiers is not all bad.  Quite the contrary.  The brilliance, or presence, of the big Magnavox instruments is impressive.  Violin, brass, steel guitar, fiddles, glockenspiel, kettle drums, this type of frequency is outstanding in these instruments.  My problem is that it sounds to me like Perry Como is standing down the hall from the orchestra when he records for RCA.  It sounds like Floyd Cramer has his left hand in his pocket.  Like Chet is only picking with his right hand.  Like the guy playing the jugs stayed home on bluegrass selections.  Why does it sound so strangled?  Why does it not sound "warm?"  The big Magnavox instruments have tuned cabinets, tuned speaker enclosures, tuned speakers.  The magnets of the 15" speakers in a Concert Grand are not the same size.  All kinds of exotic hardware and mediocre performance.  Another suggestion I have heard offered is that Magnavox speakers are not very good.  Changing the speakers to modern units is said to greatly improve performance.  I find this hard to fathom.  I have a set of 15" speakers that I got out of an organ, so I will try the speaker sub suggestion to see if it has merit.

I should be where my Concert Grand is by the middle of next month, so I can dig into it then, providing it has weathered the winter in one piece. Thanks, again.

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by 75X11 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:38 pm

Running a poll was a good idea. I wish anyone else with a thread in their head would conduct one also. Smile
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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:48 pm

WC, I will refrain for using the terminology of "Maggie" out of respect for your grandfather's horse. I didn't realize you were so sensitive. Shocked
As for big dawg radios, I'm fond of the Scott 800B for its great reception on AM and FM but it really lacks good bass. Large coaxial speaker should give a lot more. Some mods to the tone control section helped a lot. I'm not opposed to trying to make something sound better to my crappy ears.
Best, Jerry

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:06 pm

The tone control circuits were a concern of mine.  All the components for the tone controls are in couplets. I understand that recreating the couplets with discreet components yields results of varying degrees of success.  I am going to take a different approach to bass response first.  If it were up to me, the "tone compensation" switches would be real variable controls, and we would not be dealing with a dual-frequency amplifier.  The more I dig into this system, the more interesting it becomes.  There are several features that I do not understand, and I hope someone can shed some light on this for me.  It seems there are certain aspects of this system that someone went to a lot of effort to shoot themselves in the foot on.  Could a simpler circuit have yielded better performance?

We all have our little quirks.  I always correct folks who call the 401 V-8 in my Buick a "nailhead."  It is not a nailhead it is a Buick "Wildcat 445" Vertical Valve V-8.  Joe Turlay went to a lot of trouble to engineer this engine and he and Red Curtis dubbed it the Vertical Valve V-8.  Buick's detractors called it the nailhead, due to its relatively small valves.  My disdain with "Maggie" is similar, your respect for Grandpa's mare notwithstanding.

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:21 pm

Gosh WC, I understand flat head and pan head but why in the world would someone want to install a head with nails? Shocked
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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Bill Cahill on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:42 pm

Jerry, I hope your joking. That was as bad as my jokes.
Shocked Smile Laughing

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:36 pm

Bill, I do try but tough to beat some of yours! I wonder why someone referred to a V8 engine as a "nail head"? I suspect you have a great sense of humor. You have to admit, it is a strange terminology to describe an engine.

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:43 am

We are veering off course, guys.  May we now return to Magnavox?

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Bill Cahill on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:21 am

Yep. I have been given a great gift by a loving God. Now, let's get back to Maggie's back in town. Good ol' Maggie's back in town!
Hit it, WC!

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:45 am

Thank you.  We now resume our regularly scheduled program.

How about some pictures of the Concert Grand in its various configurations.  It was offered in two cabinet styles, French Provincial, model 1ST800F, and Danish Modern, model 1ST801F.  There was a model 1ST802, that was dark walnut Danish modern cabinet.  Most CG's you will see are in the French Provincial style.  Several finishes were offered:  Cherrywood, dark walnut, light walnut (almost white) pecan, and ebony.  And mahogany. Magnavox produced the most gorgeous mahogany cabinets I have ever seen. The Danish Modern cabinet features the famous sliding glass lids, while the French Provincial style has a center lid on top for the record changer compartment.

The instrument I have is a 1959, allegedly with an early serial number.  Serial numbers are moot, since there is no factory documentation that exists to decode them.  Model numbers are codes for cabinet style, finish, MPX adapter, things like that.  Service literature is obtained by using the model numbers on the various chassis.  These are stamped in black in somewhere on the chassis, sometimes more than one time.  Starting with the 1961 models, the tuning eye tube was replaced with a tuning meter.  There are slight changes in knobs, stickers and other small details from year to year.  The Collaro Conquest changer went away starting in 1961, in favor of the S-600 series Collaro changer.  The little dot seen above the eye tube and under the medallion, is the push button switch for the signal-seeking tuner.

Here is mine.



A Danish Modern style in ebony.  This is the only model like that I have seen.  I will not swear that the grille cloth is correct.  I'm not familiar with this particular instrument.  I found this picture online.  Notice the three switches in the changer compartment.  Two are visible here, but they control external speakers, the Phantom Control, and the sensitivity on the search tuner.  This will become more important in just a moment.



The business end of a Concert Grand.  This is the backside of the ebony instrument.  On the left side is the Channel 1 8200 series audio amplifier.  The same on the extreme right side, for Channel 2.  The five tube chassis between the two audio amps is the Phantom Control chassis.  The little chassis above that is the power supply chassis for the tuner.  The 6100 series tuner is in front of that.  The sloppy wiring you see is fairly typical of Magnavox.  You can see the sealed speaker enclosures on each end.  The Magnavox Concert Grand is the only stereo Magnavox instrument built with front-firing 15" woofers.  A typical installation would find these side-firing.  And the French Provincial models do not have the little "Magnavox" script and the little red pilot light in the right hand lower speaker grille.  The pilot lights are in the lower apron on the cabinet.  A red one for power on, a green one for Phantom Control on.  The Phantom Control chassis is always on when the instrument is plugged into power, unless the system is switched off per the switch in the changer compartment.



When the Concert Grand instruments were introduced in 1957, model number 300-H, they were monaural.  They featured a stereo reel-to-reel tape deck, mono AM-FM tuner and mono AMP-148 (?) amplifier.  They had a clock in the changer compartment.  Both mono and stereo Concert Grand instruments were built in 1958, with full stereo instruments with stereo FM-compatible tuners, but no tape deck or clock for 1959.  These instruments did feature Phantom Control, the first use of remote control in a Magnavox instrument.  I was under the impression that these features were standard equipment on Concert Grand instruments.  Until I saw this late, allegedly 1962-63 instrument.  I was also under the impression that the "big" Magnavox instruments disappeared after 1961, but that is a topic for another day.  Here is the only "el-strippo" Concert Grand I have ever seen.   No Phantom Control, no sensitivity control, no tuning eye tube.



Notice no Phantom Control switch, nor a sensitivity control.  You can see the plugs in the cabinet where they belong.  Different trim, and the newer S-600 Collaro changer.



The electronics of the later Concert Grand.  Notice the MPX (Multiplex) adapter is installed where the Phantom Control chassis is typically found.



WC


Last edited by Wildcat445 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:05 am; edited 9 times in total

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Bill Cahill on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:55 am

Well, I like the case. Let us see under the hood, and, in the trunk.

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Bill Cahill on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:59 am

Yep. That's the type of plastic knobs they were using on all their stuff that year. Oned had a working chassis to a 21" BW tv by them. Same plastic, though, different style. Set quit, and, I junked it. That was over fourty years ago.
Sure played nice. A nice black, and, blue picture on that high quality tube.

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:38 pm

I found some pictures I took of my Concert Grand right after I got it.  The first one is the changer compartment.  This is a Collaro Conquest F-200-C changer.  This changer is equipped for remote control operation and features a solid mounted motor.  Other Collaro changers have rubber mounts.  I have gone thru this one, as it had a seized motor when I got it.  The upper bearing was solid.  I had to take the motor apart, soak the offending bearing in PB Blaster, and after it was free service it and give it a drink of turbine oil.  Seized motors are fairly common in Collaro changers.  The changer is made in England, by a division of Magnavox.  This changer has the 45 adapter bolted to the changer compartment.  Some are in wells in the changer.  Notice the "ten year diamond needle" sticker.  These stickers change from year to year.  Making an "absolute" statement about equipment expected on any certain Magnavox instrument is a particularly risky proposition.  Magnavox mixed and matched components almost like custom built equipment.


The changer features a white platter mat, typical of Concert Grand changers.  This one is equipped with an Electro-Voice model 26 ceramic cartridge.

This shows the difference between the Imperial cabinet and the Concert Grand cabinet.  Both cabinets are on casters, a convenience particularly if used on carpet.  The Concert Grand weighs something north of 200 pounds, I would guess and the Imperial slightly less.  The Concert Grand cabinet is 58" over all, the Imperial 54".  The Concert Grand cabinet is about an inch taller, due to its larger casters.







There are two theories offered concerning the dating of Magnavox instruments.  The first is the fact that Magnavox did not sell their instruments by model years, but rather by series.  Attempts to date should be used for historical reference, not an accurate build date.  The other theory uses advertising to date instruments.  This is particularly risky due to the fact that it might be some time from when the information was released until it is actually published.  Mistakes in publishing are possible.  Cars, tractors, and trucks are restored to the standard that only factory literature is appropriate as documentation.  I hold to the first theory personally.  Magnavox went to considerable effort to make sure their instruments were not sold by specific model year.  Part of the reason is that  their instruments were sold in furniture stores, where inventory, particularly more expensive items could move more slowly.  Magnavox felt it important that the customer not feel they were buying an "old" instrument.  So I prefer using "circa 1959" or whatever to date my instruments.  It is understandable to have some idea when an item was built, but it should be fairly accurate.  There are codes on speakers and other components, but using these for documentation is risky in that they could have been replaced at some time.  

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:33 am

I finally found the picture of a "white" (LWAL) Imperial stereo.  It was hidden in the wrong place.



This one is in exceptional condition.  I'm sure not many instruments in this color were built.  I do not have a picture of a white Concert Grand, nor have I seen one.

This instrument is circa 1961, witness the newer knobs and no tuning eye tube.  No casters on this particular cabinet style, French Provincial, in this series.

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:41 pm

I decided to stop by AES and see if they had any deals on quads of 6V6's, and perhaps get some electrolytic caps for the Concert Grand.   What if I don't get tubes with "brightly shining chime" or "crunchy fizz?"  How is a normal person supposed to figure out what he needs when dealing with horse feathers like this?

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/vacuum_tubes

I have been using JJ tubes in the last couple instruments I did.  Electro-Harmonix has been recommended, so I wanted to see what they had.

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:35 pm

WC, you might feel bad if they don't provide the crunchy fizz. I wonder if they are cheaper by the dozen? Very Happy
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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:44 pm

There is nothing cheap at AES! Very Happy

Seriously though, how is the narrative enhanced by such worthless terminology for which there is no real definition? I suppose if I don't know what it is, I shouldn't be fooling with it. How does "brightly shining chime" affect the operation of my Concert Grand? Wait, that's for 6L6's. Maybe 6V6's don't NEED "brightly shining chime." Very Happy

In spite of all the bilgewater in their catalog, I actually got good service there when I got parts for that little GE stereo I did awhile back. They were somewhat higher on prices, but with no shipping, it came out about the same. I could not have made a special trip over there and made any money, though.

WC


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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:22 pm

WC, I suspect the "bilgewater" was perhaps supplied from the vendor they bought the tubes through, although they are focusing more on the audio people. I work for buying from them from one of their old printed catalogs which I don't believe they still supply. Thumb through it and write down the P/Ns and call them. I can talk to a real person in a very short wait and place my order. Generally caps, never tubes. Delivery is quick, price a little high. Convenience is nice. I hate sorting through e-catalogs. Just old I guess. For exotic stuff Mouser is my choice but I have never really mastered there dig down to find things then overwhelmed by the choices.
No doubt less expensive places to buy tubes. My contact unfortunately passed away a couple years ago. I'm certain you know of other venues that are reasonable.
Looking forward to your restoration on the Magnavox (note I did not say Maggie).
Best, Jerry

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:43 pm

I can't figure out Mouser's catalog at all. Way too complicated and hard to navigate. AES is more convenient and it simpler. I got the JJ's from AES, so I thought I'd check out EH while I was there. I wanted to put "better" (read more expensive) caps in the CG. I may just use regular cheap old caps and be done with it.

WC

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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by jerryhawthorne on Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:07 pm

WC, the only place I would worry about on caps are the ones right off the cathode of the rectifiers, first e-cap in the line. For those I would go with the Solen poly fast caps. I learned the hard way. AES has them.
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Re: Restoration of a Magnavox Concert Grand model 1ST800F

Post by 75X11 on Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:57 pm

Really nice thread so far. Great pics also!
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