Stimulus Package

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Post by Timaaay! on Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:38 pm

Without being political or expressing an opinion either way, I think we should all know where our money is going. Is it good, bad or both? You decide. Naturally all this money will need to be paid back at some point. (plus interest)

There's $1 BILLION for Amtrak, the federal railroad that hasn't turned a profit in 40 years; $2 BILLION for child-care subsidies; $50 million for The National Endowment for the Arts; $400 million for global-warming research, $2.4 BILLION for carbon-capture demonstration projects. There's even $650 million on top of the billions already doled out to pay for digital TV conversion coupons. $6 BILLION to bring high-speed Internet access to rural America, 75 million to fund programs for smokers, 21 million to re-sod the National Mall which suffered heavy damage during the inauguration, 2.25 BILLION for new bathrooms for the National parks, 335 million for the prevention of STD's, 3 BILLION to fund "family planning projects and clinics", 4.2 BILLION for Neighborhood stabilization- another 750 million to go to non-profit groups (a substantial amount to go to ACORN), 44 million to renovate the Department Of Agriculture building, 32 BILLION for "smart electricity", 87 BILLION of the medicare fund to "aid states", 53.4 BILLION for science facilities, 13 BILLION to repair and weatherize public housing, 20 BILLION for quicker depreciation and write-offs on equipment, 10.3 BILLION in college tuition write-offs, 20 BILLION for an expanded food stamp program.

Pres. Obama has promised to set up a web site, once it's passes, so we can track where our money is being spent.
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Post by Gary Tayman on Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:44 am

It is becoming more and more evident that this bill is nothing but a huge massive pork project -- in fact the largest by far in all of history. Why can't each of these items be discussed separately? Why aren't Republicans allowed to debate, amend, or have anything to do with this bill other than vote for it? Where is the huge public outcry over the gag order for Republican representatives???????? How can this even remotely be considered "Bipartisan"?

The icing on the cake: the tax credits are supposed to go to illegal aliens, to the tune of around $1,000 a person!

Last night I was working on a radio, and as I was flipping through stations I heard a quick comment, "Next thing you know the illegal aliens will be running for Congress." My first thought: THAT would be an improvement!
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Post by Uffda on Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:10 pm

I'm not opposed to a reasonable stimulus package, and I am still waiting to see one. So far I have seen a laundry list of items the Dems have been trying to
pass for the last 20-30 years. And no, a small amount of window dressing doesn't make a pig stimulating.


-Phil

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Post by terry h on Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:30 am

Well Said Phil.

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Post by exray on Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:12 am

Gary Tayman wrote:
The icing on the cake: the tax credits are supposed to go to illegal aliens, to the tune of around $1,000 a person!

I don't see how that can work since illegals cannot file tax returns to get the credit???

There's certainly some money that needs to be spent, particularly on infrastructure, but I'm of the old school where ya gotta have it before you spend it or at least some tangible means of paying back the loan which is the case here. Tossing around one-time checks and credits to individuals just to buy feel-good popularity is silly and stimulates the economy for about one day.

Its an awful big "package". I shudder to think of all the little hanger-oner pork projects that are being hidden inside.
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Post by RadioRich on Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:55 pm

Hello Exray,
Well want to say what I think about the whole Idea .
lets this say the good old usa is turning in to waistland full of Sheep and I heard to day our gross national debt exceeeded the gross national product .
Sincerely Rich

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Post by Timaaay! on Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:44 pm

I say we file child abuse charges against them! What else would you call the debt we're going to leave our children and our children's children?
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Post by terry h on Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:56 pm

Hi exray and All. Re. the illegal workers; Those that have bogus SS numbers do pay some taxes. far as I know they would be receiving checks too, be that good or bad.

I'm afraid I'm not a believer in the stimulus package as it stands.

I would like to see a tax holiday. No withholding for 2 or more months. Workers would get instant boost, and employers could use the money they don't have to contribute, for business operations. Might save some jobs, and...no checks need to be mailed. Gvt. check mailing eats money too.

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Post by exray on Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:16 am

terry h wrote:Hi exray and All. Re. the illegal workers; Those that have bogus SS numbers do pay some taxes. far as I know they would be receiving checks too, be that good or bad.

Granted there have been some cases of stolen SS numbers by illegals. That case a few months ago in San Diego was a classic one. Guy had been here illegally for 10 years and became a McDonald's manager and the number he copped back in his college days was from some other student. She didn't pick up onto it until she happened to be checking out her 401k plan online. It wasn't his original intent to 'steal' her identity or 401k and he didn't even know that it happened that way. The most frustrating part of that story was her inability to get it investigated and corrected.

Right there is a plug for needing some funding for the agencies who deal with that sort of thing. It wasn't a big deal 8-12 years ago but it is nowadays.

I'm afraid I'm not a believer in the stimulus package as it stands.

I would like to see a tax holiday. No withholding for 2 or more months. Workers would get instant boost, and employers could use the money they don't have to contribute, for business operations. Might save some jobs, and...no checks need to be mailed. Gvt. check mailing eats money too.

Thats not a bad idea conceptually but the thing is that the gubmint has to have income on a rolling basis. Terry, you run an antique shop...could you afford to just give everything away for 2 months hoping that you would get it back in the future? Could you explain that to a landlord or to the power company to keep your lights on?.

I'm not a fan of willy-nilly handouts and breaks to individuals for a few hundred bucks. All that does is prop up the flat-screen TV manufacturers in China cuz everybody rushes off to WalMArt to blow the free money. And tomorrow its all gone.

I am, however, very much in favor of funneling money into fixing up our ' infrastructure'. Infrastructure isn't just old 1960s highway bridges and power lines. Infrastructure is also schools and education, law enforcement and all that jazz. Too much has been put off for too long and if this president wants to do it on credit I'm ok with that because right now may be the best time to do it since jobs are a major issue. At the same time I have ZERO confidence in the fed ability to manage it. Just call Halliburton! Tracking a trillion dollars worth of projects is something Washington has never seen.

-ex
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Post by Timaaay! on Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:13 am

I'm not against a real stimulus package. I believe we need help to stimulate our economy and create jobs, but when a bill contains things such as a "$246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film and supplies" I find that reprehensible. I think the American people need that nearly quarter of a billion dollars more than Hollywood movie production companies. I understand that the Hollywood crowd gave Dems tons of support and barrels of money, but you tell me who this would help? Not the American folks.
As far as "green" projects and "global-warming", I believe these projects have merit, but should not be in this package. They should be in different bill altogether. Ditto for the billions to fund museums, The National Endowment For The Arts, etc., etc. These will not produce a single job nor will they generate dollar one.
I agree that we need infrastructure funding. It's long overdue, will create jobs, and improve our cities. Unfortunately, less that 4% of the money is directed towards infrastructure. Even with that comes ridiculous spending such as (I can't remember what city it was) $100,000 to give away cordless doorbells to residents. (While roads crumble and bridges fall apart)
I believe Obama should have had this bill written at The White House and not had it written by, in large part, Nancy Pelosi. He has done himself a disservice which reflects directly upon him. His popularity rating has gone from 84% when he was sworn in to 67% after his first week to 54% by the end of his second week.
The stimulus package has gone from 66% approval to 34% and is steadily falling as people see what it contains.
I just wish our representatives of both parties could work together (for once) to pass a real stimulus package NOW and debate the other projects separately. JMO
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Post by Timaaay! on Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:58 am

exray wrote:

I don't see how that can work since illegals cannot file tax returns to get the credit???

They absolutely can file. Perhaps millions of illegals file and receive refunds every year. They can use a personal tax ID number, you don't need a Social Security number to file. The legislation, which would send tax credits of $600- $1200, expressly disqualifies nonresident aliens, but it would allow people who don't have Social Security numbers to be eligible for the checks.
"Undocumented immigrants" (AKA: illegal aliens) who are not eligible for a Social Security number can file tax returns with a tax ID number. They pay nothing into Social Security but receive money back.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0108/Lou_Dobbs_alert_Illegal_immigrants_may_get_rebates.html

As if that weren't bad enough, did you know that you can receive welfare and other social programs without a Social Security number? You Don't even need a tax ID to collect. The only requirement is that you have a "permanent address within The United States". My wife and I watched a program (60 minutes or 20/20, can't remember which) about how thousands of people cross the Mexican border every month to pick up their welfare checks. They don't work here, they don"t live here, they don't pay tax here, they only enter the country to pick up their checks and go home and cash them and live quite well on the money.
There are buildings in Texas, just over the border, that have nothing but PO boxes. The address is, say 500 Main Street. They use "suite number" 1, 2, 3, etc. For a small fee, these people have a permanent US address. Not to be outdone the local junk yard, as shown on the program, has PAINTED NUMBERS ON THE JUNK CARS (to make it legal) and also accepts the checks for the Mexican residents to pick up every month. The owner of the junk yard charges $10.00/ month for "rent". And we wonder why we're in such financial ruin.
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Post by exray on Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:39 am

See above. Proper funding to the agencies charged with controlling the abuses. That would be money well spent.
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Post by Bill Cahill on Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:43 am

I agree with exray. I see no reson to go willy nilly, either.
Fix what's broken.
This is only a patch.
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Post by tube radio on Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:30 am

I agree also, fix it not put tape on it.

Lee

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Post by Resistance is Futile on Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:28 am

Shoot!
Duct tape will FIX anything Suspect
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Post by Gary Tayman on Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:19 am

Regarding the comment that the government cannot afford such a thing as a tax break for two months: this is a law of dynamics that should be taught in the public schools and proclaimed from the housetops. It is NOT a zero sum game, and when you sit down and analyze it, it is NOT true!

Sure, you can do the basic math: if 100 people are taxed $100, a total of $10,000 will be collected. If that is doubled, $20,000 will be collected. However if each person is taxed $10,000, some of them will find a way to avoid paying that much tax -- either send their money overseas, buy something and claim it as a deduction, or simply leave the country altogether (as many corporations have done, and this is one huge reason why). On paper the government should receive $1,000,000, but in reality they will receive much less.

If you own a store, you set the prices of your products. If priced too low, lots of people will come into the store and buy them, but in spite of all the traffic you won't make much. If priced too high, people will tend to buy from the store down the street. The key to making the most money comes from determining the proper prices which will bring in the most profit. With income tax it's the same way, and there's actually a graph for this known as the Laffer Curve http://www.investorwords.com/2711/Laffer_Curve.html

For years and years, the Federal Government has been on the "too high" side of this curve. Whenever tax cuts are proposed, there are people who scream things like "How will the Government pay for it?" and "We don't want no tax breaks for the rich!", and so the tax breaks are either too small, not at all, or in some cases raised so as to make the problem even worse. It is well documented, although seldom mentioned in the newspapers, that with many tax cuts have come a resulting increase in revenues. Why? Simply because business is good, people are making money, and there is more of it to collect in taxes.

In today's case, those with an "understanding" are screaming disaster with this proposed stimulus deal. Why? Because the government is taking its already insane deficit and making it much larger, in an effort to pay those people who are out of work. Forget about the fact that the vast majority of this money goes to "other" projects that belong in separate bills anyway, and forget about the concept that we are punishing the successful while rewarding non-accomplishment, and forget about the fact that such rewards won't come for a couple of years (what's with that?), the truth is that such an idea is flawed from the start. Taking money from a kitty that doesn't exist and putting it into government projects does very little to help the private sector -- those who pay the taxes and fund the government to begin with. On top of that, where will our illustrious government get this money? Obama made it very clear during the campaign that 95% of us will not see an increase in taxes. Yes, it will be better if he sticks to that promise, but I'm not holding my breath. The supposed solution is to print more money -- be prepared for Jimmy Carter style inflation.

People are losing jobs left and right, to the tune of about 500,000 a month. That's horrible. Those pushing the Stimulus Bill are saying we must pass this now, to stop the bloodletting. Unfortunately if you ask business owners why the layoffs, they'll tell you it's BECAUSE of the proposed bill, or whatever comes next if this one fails. Indeed, tax cuts, along with a promise that we won't get stung another way, WILL stop the bloodletting and even create jobs, and yes, will bring more income to the government.

Do I know how to run the government? To be honest I don't want to. Do I know how to run a BUSINESS? Yes indeed; I'm running one, and having prepared for the mess, at the moment it's doing well.
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Post by bobwilson1977 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:52 pm

I'm willing to give Obama a chance since the last administration was fully at the helm when all of this was going down. But I'm not thrilled about the bailouts-particularly for homeowners- for my own personal reasons. My wife and I are a young married couple ( late 20's, early 30's) living in California. We rent because home prices, even now, are wayyyy too high. We actually make very decent money and save quite a lot of it because we're thrifty. But the housing boom that led to the subsequent recession totally derailed our plans to buy a house for years.

Yet all around me were people making far less and still buying- or at least squeaking into a crazy loan that allowed them to "buy" some overpriced, $600,000 house. In my neighborhood, the average person is over 50 because nobody younger can afford to live here.

But all I've heard for over a year is that we've "Got to stop housing prices from falling!" I totally disagree. Those prices have to come down so that real salaries can afford them. The prices were artificially inflated with toxic loan products that no longer exist. Let the chips lay where they fall.

The worst part is that even though we stayed out of this mess, we are still paying for other people's mistakes.

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Post by Gary Tayman on Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:45 pm

To Bob Wilson:

I disagree with the first part of your message, but the rest of it is -- do you realize the point you just made is PHENOMENAL? It is so much on target, if you were to run for public office, I'd vote you in on those statements alone!

Regarding the ifrst part: The Bush administration messed everything up, so we need Obama's plan to fix it? That's a little like saying that drinking a glass of orange juice didn't cure my cold, so I'll drink a glass of cyanide -- at least give it a chance. It so happens that President Bush warned of future problems with the mortgage market, and tried to do something about it. So did John McCain. The talk show hosts are having a field day, playing recordings of the responses of Barney Frank and others, stating emphatically that Fannie May and Freddy Mac are very stable, as are the banks, and that the Republicans are only fearmongering. The President cannot do a thing for or against the economy, without Congress. The past two years we were doing it Congress's way. Agreed, Bush signed some bills he shouldn't have signed in my opinion, but Bush is not the culprit -- just the scapegoat of the left.

Now, did you realize what you just said in the rest of your message? You simply said that you want housing prices to come down because you can't currently afford one. YES YES YES!!! The reason the house prices went up in the first place was because of legislation that forced banks to give out loans to people who could not afford them. This caused a big jump in home buyers, and resulting in much higher home prices -- to the point where NOBODY can afford one. Thank you big government. So, should the government, the guys who created the problem in the first place, create MORE legislation to fix it? NO! GIVE IT BACK TO THE MARKET! Let the banks do their job, let the people decide whether they can afford a home, and the loan prices and house prices will fall back to the point where the average American can once again afford them -- without a government bailout. The stimulus bill just created almost a trillion dollars more debt. How will it be paid for? By raising taxes which will kill the economy for sure, and not pay for it anyway? Or by printing more money creating inflation? Either way is disaster.
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Post by Naddy69 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:55 pm

The stock market dropping 300 points on the day Obama signed the "stimulus" package, tells you all you need to know.

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Post by tubbytwo on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:27 pm

STIMULUS PLAN EXPLAINED

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BETTER EXPLANATION ABOUT THE
"STIMULUS BILL" THAN THIS ONE-MAKES IT CLEAR AS A BELL.

Shortly after class, an economics student approaches
his economics professor and says, "I don't understand this
stimulus bill. Can you explain it to me?"

The professor replied, "I don't have any
time to explain it at my office, but if you comeover to my
house on Saturday and help me with my weekend project, I'll be glad
to explain it to you." The student agreed.

At the agreed-upon time, the student showed up at
the
professor's house. The professor stated that the weekend
project involved his backyard pool.

They both went out back to the pool, and the
professor handed the student a bucket. Demonstrating with
his own bucket, the professor said, "First, go over to
the deep end, and fill your bucket with as much water as you
can." The student did as he was instructed.

The professor then continued, "Follow me over to
the shallow end, and then dump all the water from your
bucket into it." The student was naturally confused,
but did as he was told.

The professor then explained they were going to do
this many more times, and began walking back to the deep
end
of the pool. The confused student asked, "Excuse me,
but why are we doing this?"

The professor matter-of-factly stated that he was
trying to make the shallow end much deeper.

The student didn't think the economics professor
was serious, but figured that he would find out the real
story soon enough. However, after the 6th trip between the
shallow end and the deep end, the student began to become
worried that his economics professor had gone mad.

The student finally replied, "All we're doing is
wasting valuable time and effort on unproductive pursuits.
Even worse, when this process is all over, everything will
be at the same level it was before, so all you'll
really
have accomplished is the destruction of what could have been
truly productive action!"

The professor put down his bucket and replied with a
smile, "Congratulations. You now understand the stimulus bill."
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Post by Gary Tayman on Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:04 am

It's even worse than that.

I just read that XXXXXX's XXXXXXX of XXXXX is bankrupt and has been seized by creditors.

We're stuck with XXXXXXcare, which by the way, IS in the Stimulus package. It will force rationing of care to XXX XXXXXX, determined by cost. The statement was made, "XXX XXXXXX will just have to understand that they're going to die, and they should receive comfort in the realization that this will mean better care to XXXXXXX XXXXXX." Yah, right, and they can't even take a dip in the XXXXXXXX anymore! (But -- supposedly it will stay open; we'll see.)

I'm referring, by the way, to XXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX in XXXXX XXXX, which many believe is indeed the "XXXXXXXX XX XXXXX" that drew XXXX XXXXX XX XXXX to the area. He was killed by XXXXXX XXXXXXXXX, just a very short distance from the spring.

Amazing, the spring has been here since the beginning of time, but now its future lies essentially in the hands of XXX XXXXXXX.

By the way, better get your opinions in while you can. The "Fairness Doctrine" is now on the agenda, and expanded to include taxes/regulations on internet blogs and forums.

Yes we have a First Amendment, but it's apparently going the same direction as the Second one.


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Post by bobwilson1977 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:01 pm

I'm reading a great book on this subject ( housing and recession crash) called: "Contagion: The financial epidemic sweeping the global economy" By John Talbott.

http://www.amazon.com/Contagion-Financial-Epidemic-Sweeping-Economy/dp/0470442212/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1233948438&sr=11-1

Anyhow, he points out that the reasons for the housing boom, bust, and subsequent recession have been brewing for the better part of 30 years. The basic underlying problem is that the largest lobbying groups- those paying campaign contributions to BOTH Democrats and Republicans ( and this includes both the Mccain and Obama Campaigns) are as follows: Real Estate lobbies ( National Association of Realtors) Banking lobbies, lending lobbies, and other mortgage related lobbies. In doing so, the entire lending, baking, and mortgage industries ran utterly unregulated to the point that they basically made outright disastrous decisions that led the the inflation of housing prices and its collapse.

The bottom line is that if Americans want to prevent this from happening again, then they are going to need to become very aware and animate against corporate lobbies that benefit corporate profits yet serve as detriments to the avg consumer.

His argument is that we need more regulation and oversight. Too much regulation is bad. But not having any at all is just as much so.

As I listen to the news now, even more is being done to try and force a bottom to the housing market via Obama's Mortgage foreclosure prevention plan. This will fail. It will do so because there are years worth of resetting loans coming to fruition for the next 5-6 years. He actually predicts that a bottom won't be reached for another 4 years, and approximately another 20-30% overall decline in prices.

Anyhow, I thought it was interesting.

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Post by LarryC on Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:06 pm

I still fail to see where the "stimulus" is in this stimulus package. The talk show circuit has this pegged correctly as a Spendulous package filled with pork.
You know very well, if youve been paying attention that something very shady has just been perpetrated against the American People. They told us that this bill would be posted for all to see 48 hours before it was voted on. They gave us less than 12, and the format it was posted in was as a .pdf file or something like it, which means that each page of the over 1000 page bill has to be read, theres no way to use an editing program / feature to try and quickly look up key words or phrases ( to rapidly scan through the whole document). Evil or Very Mad
Transparency my REAR END!!!!
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Post by bobwilson1977 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:47 pm

Guess the way I look at it is no matter what was done- whether Mccain had gotten elected and decided to stick his thumb up his rear and do nothing like he's doing now, or Obama- who passed this huge stimulus plan, we're likely screwed anyway. This problem, as mentioned has been brewing for decades. Its simple really. Its about Americans buying more, more more, with less and less money derived from actual productivity and more from credit and foreign capitalization. The piper has come and we are going to have to pay. Either way, the US will probably be a much more humble, modest, and likely less wealthy country for a long time to come from here on out.

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Post by Gary Tayman on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:45 pm

>>>>Anyhow, XX points out that the reasons for the housing boom, bust, and subsequent recession have been brewing for the better part of 30 years. The basic underlying problem is that the XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXX - those paying campaign contributions to BOTH XXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXX ( and this includes both the XXXXXX and XXXXX Campaigns) are as follows: XXXX XXXXXX lobbies ( XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX XX XXXXXXXX) XXXXXXX lobbies, XXXXXXX lobbies, and other XXXXXXXX related lobbies. In doing so, the entire XXXXXXX, XXXXXXX, and XXXXXXXX industries ran utterly unregulated to the point that they basically made outright disastrous decisions that led the the inflation of housing prices and its collapse.


Something to think about: XXXXX, along with other companies, as a rule do not go under because of some stupid practice such as giving money to lobbies. If this were to happen, you might see ONE or TWO XXXXX fail AT DIFFERENT TIMES, but not the entire industry. Same with XXXXXXXXXX -- it's amazing how all of them screwed up at the same time. Sorry, but you need to look for the common denominator. XXXXX XXXXXXXXXX forced banks to make stupid loans, telling them that XXXXXX and XXXXXXX would cover them. They failed, XXXXXX and XXXXXXX could not cover them and also failed. How would lobby contributions cause XXXXXX and XXXXXXX to fail? In the case of the XXXXXXXXXX, they were just given new CAFE standards that essentially have forced them to make cars even smaller than they are now -- and nobody wants to buy them now! Consider how much time and money it takes to design a car from the ground up. XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX wants to blame everybody except themselves.

The stimulus is really bad. Doing nothing is better, but also bad. Uh, why not try removing the stupid laws that forced the industries to go under in the first place? Get XXXXXXXXXX out of the way and you'll see an instant improvement.


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Gary Tayman
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Number of posts : 47
Registration date : 2009-01-20

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Stimulus Package Empty Re: Stimulus Package

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