Crosley model 170

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Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Fri May 31, 2013 4:25 pm

I am working on a Crosley 170. It has at last two, maybe three, dual section capacitors. My question is this: Is the mounting strap common negative for the two caps? Thanks.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Bill Cahill on Fri May 31, 2013 10:45 pm

You'd have to find out in the schematics. Some yes, others no.

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:47 am

Thanks, Bill. Hopefully you are feeling better.

I gonna go with the theory that the mounting strap is negative until that proves incorrect. No other way it can reasonably be.

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Bill Cahill on Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:40 am

If this is a battery set, I have also seen the positive as ground. I have seen manny ways of connecting batteries.
I have seen - ground for A, which is filaments, + gound for B, which is B+. Also, alot of battery radios require a C battery for bias. A schematic is very important.
Nostalgia Air comes to mind.

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:36 pm

This is an AC set. A 10-tube cathedral. The schematic for this radio is in Riders 4-15. It is horribly hard to read. I had to blow it up 500% to try and figure out how the double capacitors in the chassis were wired. #13&14, both .1 caps at 200 volts is clean enough that I can see that the strap is common negative. This fits with the schematic, as best I can tell. #34&35, one is a .05 and one is .008 also uses the strap as the common. This radio is fairly dirty, with black dirt commonly found in buildings that used coal heat. The stuff is hard to get off capacitors so I can read the values. All the ones I have changed so far have been Micamold caps. It is a good bet these babies are bad, so I am going to change them before I apply power with the rectifier installed. Windex works well to remove the dirt without removing the wax and the symbols I am trying to read. I went ot Nostalgia Air to get a schematic, but theirs was no better than mine. The schematic appears to have been hand drawn and the numbers and symbols are smeared. The symbols for a connection and no connection are hard to read. This thing will take some guessing on my part to get it done. That won't be the first time. There is lots of room to work on stuff, so that is good. I got that Hallicrafters s-38-C to work. This one should be cake. This one may be the one that tries to kick my butt. Things are going too well so far. Thanks for your input, Bill. Hope you are feeling better. BTW......I haven't seen anything from Cliff lately. I hope he is not sick or anything like that.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Resistance is Futile on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:48 am

No!
I just have some family issues with my grandson and his mother not wanting him and my wife's care takes a lot of time and my computer which locks up with McAfee when I try to monitor in real time, So I had to Reinstall and lost all my shortcuts, Email contacts, Schematic's, PDF books on radio repairs and passwords.

I have had a cough and its finally getting the best of me. Last year I fractured a couple of ribs, so I am being wary of this seasons pollen and dust. Other than that I am still cleaning my Garage and sorting and reorganizing my radio Room.
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:35 am

I'm glad to know that you are still with us. Sometimes life gets in the way of doing things we enjoy. I eliminated lots of computer glitches when I canned McAfee and started using Trend Micro. Anyway.....I hadn't heard from you in some time, so figured I would inquire. Sorry if I intruded.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Resistance is Futile on Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:09 pm

No Problem glad to know, that you are concerned, good feeling. Very Happy
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:33 pm

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I have been working on the dual caps in this Crosley radio. I had to use terminal strips to have something to mount the new caps to. This has been proceeding without any problems other than a crappy schematic. I guess the Crosley engineers did not see the need for anyone to read their schematic drawings after the ink dried. I need to find a #58 tube. I may have to resort to using The Bay to find one. I will exhaust every other avenue before I do that. I have a 6D6 in place of the 58, but with a 6 volt heater, the 6D6 may not get hot enough to work on 2.5 volts. I had two spare 58's, and both of them had bad filaments--total duds. Bummer.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by b_body_bill on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:40 am

Wildcat445 pm me with your e-mail address I think I have a better drawing for you. Things are hectic here but I will get back to you in a day or two. It is from a Crosley service manual
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:09 pm

PM sent. Thank you for your offer. I would sure like to double-check my wiring before I button this thing up and apply power.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by b_body_bill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:29 am

Will try to get it to you today
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by b_body_bill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:52 am

WC
email sent hope it helps
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:51 pm

I got it! It is the same schematic as in Riders and Nostalgia Air, but the one you sent is much clearer, and enabled me to double check the wiring. Thanks for all your time and trouble with this. I sincerely appreciate it!

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by b_body_bill on Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:23 am

No problem, glad to help out.
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:23 pm

I am still working on the dual caps. There is some hack work that I found that needs to be cleaned up before I can go much farther. I still need a 58 tube. I may give up and get one on ebay. That will annoy me. My wife had knee surgery, so I haven't had lots of shop time.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:07 pm

I have had a couple of sessions with this chassis on my bench. I did my usual procedure and shotgunned the caps. I had previously applied power with the rectifier out to check the power transformer and to make sure I had power where it was supposed to be. All the tube filaments and the dial bulb lit up and I had power on the rectifier socket like I should. I went ahead and changed all the filter caps, the cathode bypass cap and all the coupling capacitors. I only found one resistor out of tolerance enough to change. I checked and double-checked my work against the schematic, and was satisfied that all was well enough to apply power. I cleaned up the hack wiring and I was able to source a #58 tube without having to resort to using ebay.

I have worked on lots of radios in my day, but this schematic was the worst I have EVER encountered. Even the better one required some "guestimation" to figure out component values.

I applied power and brought it up slowly. I monitored B+ and watched the dim bulb and the ammeter. This radio is rated at 125 watts, so my 75 watt dim bulb tester got bright fairly early in this test. I watched for the magic smoke, listened for strange noises, and monitored B+. Everything looked good, so I switched out the dim bulb and ramped up the voltage to 117 volts, which is the line voltage around here. B+ was a tad high compared to the schematic, but I was using a VTVM instead of the recommended 1000 ohms per volt meter indicated in the schematic. B+ on the schematic specified 355 volts at the first filter cap, and I read 365 volts on my VTVM. Close enough for me. I connected the set to my outdoor antenna and pulled in several stations, one from about 220 miles away as the crow flies. I had good sensitivity and selectivity, with good volume. Nothing got hot, except the rectifier and output tubes, naturally. The PT ran cool. The speaker sounds pretty good for being 81 years old and original. No hum, but I have an oscillation squeal occasionally when I maneuver the band switch. I will do a more thorough cleaning and re-check operation. The tone control is a tad too bassy for my taste. I may experiment with caps in the tone control circuit and see if I can clean it up a tad. It is not too bad listening to music, but is too muddy sounding for voice. The tone cap is currently a .05. I will go to a .01 and see if that is better. I can never remember which way to go for less or more bass, so I end up experimenting until I get the result I want. And,oddly enough, the dial bulb is suddenly defective. It worked about 15 minutes and blinked out. Apparently the strain was too much for it. It is a screw in base and probably some weird voltage. Everything else about this set has been weird, so why not?

The cabinet is coming along. This thing is never going to be "purist snob" quality. I had to replace the veneer on the outside of the cabinet and on the front of the arch. The entire front should have been replaced, but I repaired it as best I could, since my veneering skills are not up to that task. The wood on the front was so dry that the stain and toners did not work evenly. So I had to improvise. It will be good enough for me and the purists can just not look. It is eons better than it was, and it no longer resides in a chicken house. The guy I got it from is almost my age, and he stated when I got the radio, that it had been out in the chicken house for as long as he could remember. It had probably not said a word for over 50 years until this afternoon. Getting these old neglected turds to work again after so much neglect and time still feels good, no matter how many times I do it. My wife has cabbaged onto this radio, and has stated that it will reside in our family room, sitting on the table my grandfather made when he was in high school, in 1916. She has selected some "hot rodded" grill cloth for it since the original stuff is not available. I will attach a swatch of the original grill cloth to the inside of the cabinet for reference should the original stuff become available.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by ea327 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:18 pm

Hey WC,

Check with Roy at:http://www.radiotubesupply.com/Tubecatalog/catalog4.html

He always comes through for me.
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:27 pm

For what should I check with Roy? If you are referring to grill cloth, thank you for the link. My wife thinks that the original grill cloth in old radios is "gauche" and prefers to use whatever suits her. None of my radios has original style grill cloth with the exception of Philco. I like the "v-cloth" so I use that. Hot rodded grill cloth is a concession I make so that my frau feel "included" in my radio hobby (wink, wink!) I save a swatch of the original cloth so that it can be put back should the original stuff become and should someone after I die care to replace it. It will stay hot rodded while I own them.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by ea327 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Wildcat445 wrote:I am still working on the dual caps.  There is some hack work that I found that needs to be cleaned up before I can go much farther.  I still need a 58 tube.  I may give up and get one on ebay.  That will annoy me.  My wife had knee surgery, so I haven't had lots of shop time.

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WC
For this.
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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:04 pm

Thanks. I got one, actually two, and put one in and it is working.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:37 am

I had the opportunity to spend some more quality time with this chassis this evening. I had two problems that I wanted to run down. The first one was that the tone was too "bassy" for my taste, with voices sounding too muffled and hard to understand. The coupling cap that I had put into the tone control circuit was a .05. The schematic called for a .008. I changed the .05 to a .01 and that fixed the muffled output. The tone control has more range now and more control over the audio. Voices sound much more clear. The second problem that I discovered was that after the chassis was allowed to operate for a couple of hours, the audio would get garbled and would sometimes drop off considerably in volume. I tested the #56 audio amp, both 2A5 output tubes and found no shorts, gas or low emissions. No grid emissions. I then got out my signal tracer and started checking audio. I was good until the volume control. Out of the volume control, the audio was not as clear. I had cleaned the volume control before I fired up the radio. I did this again, and this time used a detail brush and put a dab of WD-40 on the control. I know, I know. WD-40 is just a moisture disbursant. Baloney. It works well on everything, and did on this as well. I carefully cleaned the tone control and band switch is like manner, just for grins. The audio is now nice and clear, even after several hours of operation.

I did have one moment of excitement. The Grand Old Opry was playing and everything was just going really well. I was monitoring current and B+ on this chassis while I worked on another old dog that has been eating my lunch all summer. I heard a loud pop and the smoke started rolling. LOTS of magic smoke. I pulled the power cord and turned the chassis up where I could see the bottom. I could not see anything that looked amiss. Nothing burned. I pulled and tested the rectifier. Still good. While the rectifier was out, I powered up again slowly to check the power transformer. Just fine, and still cool like it always had been. I checked for a short in B+. No short. Everything was just like it was when I put it there. I rechecked wiring (for the upteenth time.) Still okay. E-caps were wired correctly. What is up with this thing?

I put my test rectifier in and powered up slowly. The radio started playing at about 80 line volts. No smoke. At about 90 volts, I could hear some frying. At 100 volts, I could see where it was coming from. The input filter cap was blazing hot and the positive end of the cap was arcing on the terminal strip to which it was mounted. There was still no smoke. I had mounted the cap on a terminal strip instead of restuffing the can. (I hate this procedure, and never restuff unless there is no other way.) I had to make the wires on the cap fairly short to give not only a neater job, but to allow for tight clearnace. The absolutely only conclusion I have come to is that I got the cap too hot soldering it in and damaged the insulation. It eventually arced thru and the smoke rolled. I played the radio for about 20 more minutes at 80 volts line voltage and it played just fine. Crank the line voltage up to 100 and the e-cap would start arcing. I checked the resistance on B+ yet again, and it is over 200k ohms. So there is no short. What caused this cap to take a hike after the set had run for several hours today? Interestingly, when the cap starts arcing, the current draw on the chassis does not rise. I am going to solder in another, different brand filter cap tomorrow. I will make the leads longer and insulate them. I got lazy and took the shortest way. That is not always best. Then I will just see what happens. If it was wired wrong, it would not have run for several hours before letting out copious amounts of magic smoke. I was running the chassis on my ISO/VARIAC/dim bulb and the dim bulb did not get brighter when the cap did whatever it did. The cap looks fine, not burnt or blown apart. Where did the smoke come from? But the end of the cap will arc when line voltage gets to about 100 volts on the line. Strange.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:18 pm

These questions remain unaswered after another hour tinkering with this chassis. Why all the smoke when nothing is fried, and how did I have B+ with a "bad" input filter cap, and what happened to the cap to cause this condition? Is it possible that a new filter cap just took a random dump for no apparent reason?

I changed the input filter cap. I put in a different brand, one that I just got a couple weeks ago. I brought the set up gradually on my Variac until I reached 100 volts line voltage. Everything seems fine. I went on up to 117 volts line voltage and still fine. B+ is right on the money. 355 volts at the rectifier cathode, 355 volts on the positive terminal of the input filter cap, 340 volts on the positive of the output filter cap, after the choke, and 296 on the plates of the 2A5 output tubes. The set plays absolutely fantastically, in this fringe area, in the middle of the day, usually a time when all I get is noise and Rush. This chassis has a tuned RF stage and three stages of IF, so it is a good performer. I let it run for about 15 minutes, with no smoke. An 81 year old power transformer will only take so much. I have the fuses fused, but it did not help in this case, since the current draw did not rise.

Have any of you had a new filter capacitor fail for no apparent reason? Am I overlooking something here? What say you? I realize that anything is possible, but I just want to be sure I have covered all my bases. Thanks.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Wildcat445 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:07 am

Since I seem to be talking to myself here, I will close this thread. The filter cap that failed was apparently defective. I found no other reason for the failure. The failed new filter cap was a 10uf @450 volt electrolytic. If I increased the line voltage to 122 volts, B+ became 425 volts! That 450 volt cap was on the ragged edge of being large enough. My line voltage here is normally around 117, so I should be okay. I ran the radio for several hours, monitoring B+ and current draw, and everything seems to be okay. Nothing except the usual tubes get hot. Maybe somebody can get some good out of my experience.

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WC

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Re: Crosley model 170

Post by Bill Cahill on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:08 am

Nope. I'm interested. Don't want it closed. Keep writing.

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