A New Edsel!

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Post by 35Z5 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:24 pm

willy3486 wrote:While we are on the engines I am curious about the 352,360,390. I was told these engines were basically the same except for the bore of the engine. Is that true? I was told they were designed the same except for that.

True... In most every engine series the basic design is always the same, height, width, length, bore spacing of the cylinders, deck height(distance from the centerline of the crankshaft to the deck[head mating] surface), etc... Exception is some engine designs will use a taller block to fit in a longer stroke crankshaft(302 vs 351 small block for example) but this never happened in the FE series...

Bore & stroke of the FE engines... I'm going by memory here, ate, breathed and slept the larger FE's for a lot of years...

..........Bore.. Stroke
332... 4.00 x 3.30..'58 & '59 Ford only
352... 4.00 x 3.50.. '58 thru '66 in Ford passenger cars, thru '67/'68(?) in P/U
360... 4.05 x 3.50.. P/U only '68('69?) through '76
361... Same bore stroke as 360, '58 & '59 Edsel(thanks MEZLAW)
390... 4.05 x 3.78.. '61 passenger thru early '71(repl by 400), P/U through '76
406... 4.13 x 3.78.. '62 mid '63 High Perf only, all engines used solid lifter cam...
410... 4.05 x 3.98.. '66 & '67 Mercury only(basically a stretched 390)
427... 4.23 x 3.78.. mid '63(repl 406) mid '68, High Perf with solid cam(ex '68)
428... 4.13 x 3.98.. '66 thru '70, originally introduced as a torquer to move T-Birds, big Fords & Mercurys, it evolved int a semi Hi Perf engine in '68(Cobra Jet), used in Mustang, Cougar and mid-size models in both Ford & Mercury... '69 brought the Super Cobra Jets that used a beefier 427 type rod...

In the late '60s the hot street setup was stroke the 427 with the 428 crank which yields a 447, overbore it .030 and you have a 454 Ford(Chevy's largest displacement)... Now days most "big" 427 use a 4.25" piston(common Chevy size) with the 428 crank to produce a 452...

BTW I just briefly touched on most of the engines... In '60 there was Hi-Perf solid cam 352 with 360 HP... 1961 brought 390 variants with as much as 401Hp, still the bread & butter std 300Hp version was by far the most common...
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Post by Doug Burskey on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:55 am

I remember Dad talking about looking at Edsels on the day when they were introduced.He wondered what was the big deal was about those cars,of corse he was more of a Oldsmobile and Buick man.Had a 57 Olds at that time,then traded that in on a 1960 Olds.

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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:08 am

Great job on your post 35Z5.

I'm not sure myself when the 352 stopped in pickups and was replaced by the 360. On the Mercury 410 it was "streched" by using the 428 crankshaft. I had a 1966 Merc with the 410. I still have a 1976 F250 with the 360 (last year for the engine) whicj I ordered new. I also have a 1966 Galaxie with the 390. I have two intake manifolds with the 3X2 setup complete!

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Post by 35Z5 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:55 pm

Well I looked on Wikipedia and they say '68 was 1st year for the P/U 360...

Wiki does have a good write up on FE that seemed to be correct, though that site is often fraught with misinformation... What little info they have on the 250 6cyl is misleading and open to incorrect assumptions...


BTW cool on the '76 P/U, the '73-'77 is one of my favorite models, never really liked the big mouth grill & rectangular head lights on the '78-'79... About a dozen years ago I bought a nice '74 with 360 real reasonable, but I was offered more money than I could refuse so it went to a new home...

Thinking of the '78/'79 reminded me of a story a friend told me years ago when looking at new trucks... Anyway he spotted a truck back in the service area that he had never seen before so asked the salesman what it was... Salesman replied "it's a damn Dodge with Ford written on it", he was talking about the new '80 models...
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Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:16 pm

I am not much of a Ford historian, but, if memory serves (more doubtful each year) was not the FE 361 the base engine in the Ford bodied '58 Edsels (Ranger and Pacer) and the 410 the engine in the Mercury bodied models (Corsair and Citation)? Do I not also correctly remember that the big 430 cubic inch Lincoln/T-Bird engine was available on special order in the 1959 Citation (Mercury bodied) models?

My experience with the FE/FT Ford engines was that they liked their fuel, especially in trucks. They could be oil drinkers and were nearly impossible to keep cool, particularly in off-road use, like dump trucks and fertilizer spreader trucks. In their defense, they would tolerate being run with the temperature gauge pegged for years on end. They ran fairly low oil pressure and the bottom ends would come apart. I bought three 1966 F-600's with bulk fuel delivery bodies on them,powered by 361's. I used them two years and put the bodies on GMC chassis. The 366 GM engine was VASTLY superior, in every way, to the FE/FT Ford.

1967 was the last year the 352 was offered in Ford P/U trucks.

Tele-Touch was an option on the Ford-bodies Edsels, in 1958. It was standard on the two upper series, but even they could be ordered with a normal gear selector. This feature was plagued by insufficient development, mainly keeping the wiring harness in the steering column working properly. The Chrysler system was better than Edsel, but still had its bugs. The Rolls-Royce system is the bomb as far as electric shift assist is concerned. Lots simpler and totally silent. AND it worked with the GM Turbo-Hydra-Matic 400 transmission.

I also remember to have read somewhere that the FE engines used in cars and light trucks, had different blocks from the FT series used in heavier trucks. That makes sense from a mounting and clutch/transmission standpoint. GM and Chrysler HD engines were different than car/light truck engines. Maybe someone would care to shed some light on this.

Regards

WC

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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:48 pm

For 1958 only there were two very different Edsel frames. The Citation and Corsair were based on the Mercury while the Ranger and Pacer were based on the Ford. These cars were of different lenghts and even the wheels had different bolt patterns and were not interchangable! The E400 engine was the 361 CI and the E475 was the 410 CI. These engines are in the same family as the Mercury 383 and the Lincoln/T-bird 430. They were very different than the FE family. The 1958 villager station wagon was based on the 1957 Ford country Squire. For 1959 all Edsels were based on the Ford, all glass was the same as 1959 Ford. The basic stamping of the dashboard was also Ford. 1959 Ford and Edsel, radios and clocks as well as other dash components will interchange but they do have different styling. The engine line up for 1959 was also the same as Ford, 223 6cyl., 292 V8, 332 V8, and 352 V8.

The FE and FT differed in the cranckshafts (forged for FT) and the FT's had lower compression. You could put an FT into a car with no problem but no one would ever want to. The FE was a very strong engine with the strongest bottom end I ever saw. I never had one overheat either. You may be thinking of the 272, 292, 312 engines. These engins were very weak in the bottom end and had oil problems. The original engine for the 272, 292, and 313 was the 239 which was only available in 1954

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Post by 35Z5 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:19 pm

Wildcat445 wrote:
I also remember to have read somewhere that the FE engines used in cars and light trucks, had different blocks from the FT series used in heavier trucks. That makes sense from a mounting and clutch/transmission standpoint. GM and Chrysler HD engines were different than car/light truck engines. Maybe someone would care to shed some light on this.

Regards

WC

AFAIK the bell housing pattern is same for FT & FE, different size flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate were used dependent on application... Large trucks used a 12" disc while most car applications used 11"(at least my '64 390 three on tree, later 4-speed), My 428CJ uses a 11.5" clutch as does most other Hi Perf applications... The Hi Perf applications used a transmission with a 1 3/8" input shaft as did the large trucks, std vehicles got 1 1/8"...

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Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:17 pm

I had a fleet customer with a bunch of Louisville "L-Line" F-800 Ford trucks with the 391 engine. The were in dump trucks and spreader trucks. The radiators in these trucks were bigger than a Toyota, were cooled with 18", 6-blade shrouded fans. Those engines ran with the temp gauge pegged in weather over 70 degrees for as long as I serviced them,"normal" was 240 degrees. The gauge "pegged" at 230 degrees. The only time anyone got concerned about engine temp was when they got so hot that the oil pressure dropped, at about 260+ degrees. Shell Rotella 15w40 oil helped, as did Mobil 1 full synthetics later, but nothing really made them run cool. We kept a spare crate engine in stock, so we could have the truck back in service 'mucho pronto' when a 391 would grenade. FE engines had crankcase ventilation problems. They would blow oil and oil would stand in the intake manifold. If I managed to "redesign" the crankcase ventilation system so they would not blow oil, and the engine had any time on it at all, then oil consumption was the concern. Some of those 391's would burn a couple quarts of oil a day, especially the off-road rigs. The 429's and 370's were lots better.

Mr. "LAW", with all due respect, are you positive that the 361 and 410 engines were not FE engines? The 368, 383, 430, and 462 were a different engine family. They had the power steering pump mounted around the harmonic balancer! The 410 was used in Mercury cars up until the middle 1960's, were they not? I heard old Ford garage mechanics of the time call Ford trucks with the 361 engine "Farmer's Edsels" due to their Edsel-sized engine.

As to the engine blocks in trucks and cars being different, the displacement of the truck and car engines were always within one cubic inch of the other. I had always heard the the HD engines were "tall deck" versions of the car engines. The bores and strokes were mixed and matched to keep them similiar to the car engines for "family identification" purposes. My understanding was that the only thing that would interchange between the car and HD engines was the oil pan and valve covers. Everything else was a little different. I appreciate the input on this.

Regards

WC

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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:34 pm

The 410 was used in Mercury cars up until the middle 1960's, were they not?

Ford had a lot of confusion about engines, as stated in my earlier posts there was another 410, this 410 was nothing but a 390 with a 428 crankshaft installed and only available in '66 and '67. There were also two 361's, an FT engine for trucks and another for the Edsel.

My understanding was that the only thing that would interchange between the car and HD engines was the oil pan and valve covers
Not so.

Other confusing engines by Ford; 351C, 351W and 351M all very different engines.

Also name confusion; Ranger was used for Edsel 58-60, then as a model on the F series trucks 60's and 70's. Finally the Range became a small size pickup truck.

another confusion;
1953 Ford flathead was a 239 CI V8 1954 Ford OHV was a 239 CI V8

As far as the overheating, my experience is with the FE and not the FT, so you my be right on that issue. Smile


You can call me Larry if you like. Smile

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Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:16 pm

Fair enough. I learned something. Thanks for your input. Like I said, my Ford expertise has a few gaps.

Regards

WC

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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:19 pm

Yes....... Fair enough, I learned something too..........about the problems with FT engines! Smile

I'll bet I could fine some nice old fords out your way without any rust!

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Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:33 pm

You can also find Edsels. I have a friend, Ed, who owns a '58 Citation convertible. He is thinking about selling it. Baby blue and white. Rotisserie restoration. Nice, nice, nice.

Regards

WC

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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:42 pm

This is from an Edsel ad, it's a 1958 hard top with my favorite color combination red/black;

A New Edsel! - Page 2 814968442_8e7a0ba35d

The lines are so nice you have to look close to see it's a 4 door.

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Post by Wildcat445 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:58 pm

That's a Corsair hardtop.You would cut quite a swath in a ride like that. I will see if I can persuade good old Ed to get me a picture of his Edsel. He bought it new. His is blue with white in the cove, white top, and two tone blue and white interior. Has those cute Edsel spinner hubcaps. IIRC, it rides on 14" tires?

Regards

WC

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Post by 35Z5 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:20 am

MEZLAW wrote:The 410 was used in Mercury cars up until the middle 1960's, were they not?

Ford had a lot of confusion about engines, as stated in my earlier posts there was another 410, this 410 was nothing but a 390 with a 428 crankshaft installed and only available in '66 and '67. There were also two 361's, an FT engine for trucks and another for the Edsel.


The 410 MEL was a one year only Edsel engine in '58, the 410 FE was a two year build in '66 & '67 as mentioned... Two different engine families... The MEL series only had a life span of 10 years, '67 was last year for any MEL, the 462 was replaced for '68 by the new 460 that's part of the 385 family...

While we are on sames, there was 302 & 332 HD Y blocks used in large trucks that were based on the '52 Lincoln engine... The 332 FE was one of the original sizes that debuted in the '58 models and the 302/5.0 small block went on to be the '55 Chevy of the '80s & early '90s when used in Mustangs... Of course that took approx 15 years from when it was introduced in '68(nothing like a overnight success)...
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Post by Dr. Radio on Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:24 pm

As a Chevy/GM guy, I have nothing to add of value to this discussion Embarassed

But I must say, the information is VERY informative and interesting! Razz

Just a fun tidbit, but I believe (on the subject of pushbutton controlled transmissions), but Chrysler quit manufacturing pushbutton transmissions in 1964. The '65 model year followed the rest of the industry with a standard column lever for basic controls of an automatic transmission. I heard this caused them to save $1 per car during manufacturing.
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Post by Sal on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:14 am

Just a few months ago a friend of mine finished working on a pink 58 Edsel convertible, had the engine rebuilt and installed it and finally fixed that electrical nightmare push button transmission selector on the steering column.

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Post by Ben Delk on Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:43 pm

Great looking car. They just don't make cars like that anymore. I had "56" Packard Clipper once. V8, auto, air, power everything, even had pneumatic air lift or back then it was called leveler. Rode like a dream and had a back seat the size of a twin bed........but that's another story.
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Post by Wildcat445 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:25 pm

Ben, your '56 Packard actually had a torsion bar suspension on all four wheels. It was controlled by an incredibly complex and trouble-prone electronic system that consisted of eight relays, sometimes made by a combination of three different manufacturers! Packard was in its death throes by then, and was buying from anyone who would extend them credit. The heart of the system was an electric motor, usually made by Delco, that "wound" or "relaxed" the torsion bars, depending upon the load. Sometimes, it actually worked. Sadly, usually it did not. Many of those old Packards were junked because of the torsion bar suspension malfunctioning. Some were converted to coil springs in the front and leaf springs in the rear.

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WC

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Post by Ben Delk on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:15 pm

Not a car man, just put gas in it and go but the suspension had these big rubber diaphrams in the rear and a switch on the left side of the dash. We used fill the trunk full of friends, flip the switch to level out and go to the drive-in. Good times!!!!
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Post by Wildcat445 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:13 pm

Some aftermarket system, then. The real thing was either coil/leaf springs or torsion bars.

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Post by Guest on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:54 pm

A 1958 dealer promo film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mawe5DYfjuY

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